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Filler in Super
Topic Started: Jan 9 2018, 04:05 PM (5,741 Views)
Dagon
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Thiln
Jan 13 2018, 11:22 PM
When it comes to the seemingly asinine growth rates of characters in short periods of time I'm compelled back to asking what the general sentiment is on some of the other unaddressed truths of the show. Like for instance, Vegeta admits to himself in episode 2 of Super that Goku is the strongest in the universe.

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Does anyone seek to challenge the validity of that posit like they do with other characters? Gohan's potential was unleashed and then stacked multifold by the Elder Kaioshin. The generally held belief is that Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter at the end of the Buu arc. So why is it that Goku is being declared the strongest? What is Gohan, chopped liver? For Goku to have surpassed his son between the Buu and BoG arcs he would have had to have increased his power hundreds of times over. Since the Buu arc, Goku has only been allowed to train in-between his agricultural duties. He only got the chance to work out on King Kai's at the end of the first episode. You're telling me Goku multiplied his already massive power by hundreds of times through a scant method of punches and kicks out in the woods? That kind of training was superseded by more efficient methods as early back as the 21st tournament arc; and people criticise Piccolo for having ridiculous gains.
Later in that episode when Vegeta is training in the gravity chamber, he says "I'm not content with being number 2," or something like that. You can hear Vegeta say "numbah tsoo." Some subtitles translate it as "second best." Chris Sabat says "Second best." Now, if Vegeta truly was second best, that would mean SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, but we know that is incorrect. We just have to deduce that Vegeta is only considering himself and Goku in these statements. Vegeta calling Goku the number one in the universe could be just Goku as a fighter, not sheer strength. Gohan had been pretty bad as a fighter even though he became stronger than everyone else in the Buu Saga and even against Cell, where Gohan drew the fight out longer and got people killed as a result.
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Thiln
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Why would Gohan neglect to use even Super Saiyan against such a dangerous opponent? There's no reason for him to withhold his strength during a crisis like that. Besides that, Piccolo's ascertainment of Gotenks' power isn't the only barometer used in measuring a general strength gap between Goku and Gohan. According to the Daizenshuu, Super Saiyan 3 unleashes all of the dormant power that the user possesses.

-3
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time

Well we knew how much that amounted to. Gohan's potential is certifiably the greatest of the three main Saiyan protagonists; that's just basic principal. Elder Kaioshin's ability was used to, and I quote, "draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits". Notice the emphasis he uses while citing the amplification of the recipient's power beyond their limits. I sincerely doubt such exaggerations coupled with Gohan inherently boasting greater potential than Goku would only have seen his power increased to 5x his father's. Past precedence in deterioration only saw Gohan lose a moderate amount of power between the Cell and Buu arcs; and that loss took place over a greater period of time.

I think the bulk of Gohan's power loss occurred sometime before the events of RoF. It wasn't rooted in any strong corroborative foundation, though. We had a general idea of the extent of his power loss in the Buu arc from lack of training and it was nowhere near to the extent where he was doubting his own ability to transform into a regular Super Saiyan.
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superperfectnerd
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Thiln
Jan 14 2018, 01:25 AM
Why would Gohan neglect to use even Super Saiyan against such a dangerous opponent? There's no reason for him to withhold his strength during a crisis like that. Besides that, Piccolo's ascertainment of Gotenks' power isn't the only barometer used in measuring a general strength gap between Goku and Gohan. According to the Daizenshuu, Super Saiyan 3 unleashes all of the dormant power that the user possesses.

-3
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time

Well we knew how much that amounted to. Gohan's potential is certifiably the greatest of the three main Saiyan protagonists; that's just basic principal. Elder Kaioshin's ability was used to, and I quote, "draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits". Notice the emphasis he uses while citing the amplification of the recipient's power beyond their limits. I sincerely doubt such exaggerations coupled with Gohan inherently boasting greater potential than Goku would only have seen his power increased to 5x his father's. Past precedence in deterioration only saw Gohan lose a moderate amount of power between the Cell and Buu arcs; and that loss took place over a greater period of time.

I think the bulk of Gohan's power loss occurred sometime before the events of RoF. It wasn't rooted in any strong corroborative foundation, though. We had a general idea of the extent of his power loss in the Buu arc from lack of training and it was nowhere near to the extent where he was doubting his own ability to transform into a regular Super Saiyan.
Ssj3 can't be a potential unlock anymore though can it? If it was ssj3 Goku would be stronger than ssjb Goku and that's not the case.

If Gohan hadn't used his strength at all in these 3 years unlike when he was a teen in which he probably still busted out ssj every once in a while for fun, his power could be in complete flux. Like he's trying to 'go ultimate' to fight Beerus and his power just isn't sparking up, it's not working for him, he's having performance issues. He's not necessarily weaker than he was after the 7 years, his body is just completely out of practice and kind of confused by his prior potential unlock having worn off. He's getting false starts if you like. In the movie and arcs Gohan is suddenly using ssj moments later to fuel Goku, when before he couldn't and then in ROF he doesn't know if he can transform. I don't think Gohan would get so weak as to not be able to easily use ssj ordinarily but if his body has been confused by an unnatural 'beyond his limits' power up, he's having trouble regulating it after 3 years of not even attempting to fight at all. So he tried to use his full power against Beerus but just can't.

As for somebody not going full power against Beerus, well Gotenks used ssj in the movie and base form in the arc. Never busted out ssj3 against an opponent wanting to end thir world.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 14 2018, 02:51 AM.
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Thiln
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I would say that SSJ3 elevates the user's power to its inherent non-deity limits. Both the red and blue forms are special extraneous forms which can't be obtained in any organic sense.

Gohan would have needed to elevate his power to a sum of being great enough to survive Beerus using Good Buu's body as a battering ram against him. He neglected to transform into any golden hair states which leaves only the Mystic power as his recourse in surviving such trauma from a dangerous opponent like that. As to the matter of his transforming for the ritual, wasn't Videl exhibiting signs of Super Saiyan via her child's Saiyan genetics? I think the extent of physical characteristics might hinge on the user's capacity for transforming at the time, or to cite a recent interview from Toriyama, their amount of S cells or whatever. Pan seemingly already had a considerable amount of cells prior to her birth.
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superperfectnerd
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Thiln
Jan 14 2018, 03:10 AM
I would say that SSJ3 elevates the user's power to its inherent non-deity limits. Both the red and blue forms are special extraneous forms which can't be obtained in any organic sense.

Gohan would have needed to elevate his power to a sum of being great enough to survive Beerus using Good Buu's body as a battering ram against him. He neglected to transform into any golden hair states which leaves only the Mystic power as his recourse in surviving such trauma from a dangerous opponent like that. As to the matter of his transforming for the ritual, wasn't Videl exhibiting signs of Super Saiyan via her child's Saiyan genetics? I think the extent of physical characteristics might hinge on the user's capacity for transforming at the time, or to cite a recent interview from Toriyama, their amount of S cells or whatever. Pan seemingly already had a considerable amount of cells prior to her birth.
I'm saying Gohan was somewhere inbetween his 'mystic' and ssj forms, hence his power being in flux and him not being able to get a handle on it.

Plus if Vegeta hasn't sensed Gohan in 3 years then how does he know where he stands? He knows how strong Goku is, probably senses him training.

Plus Vegeta has always somewhat discounted Gohan's power as an obstacle to overcome, many times even as far back as the Freeza arc and especially more recently in Super Vegeta even seems proud when he senses/sees Gohan's power and potential. He even scolds Gohan for slacking, knowing that Gohan will quickly surpass him when he doesn't slack. Vegeta is mainly focused on surpassing the other pure blood saiyan and when he's monologuing about Goku being the "strongest in the universe", I honestly kind of think he's just discounting Gohan as a given.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 14 2018, 03:56 AM.
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Dagon
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In the BoG arc I think Gohan was using his ultimate form but it was weakened because he never practices. He later loses access to the form entirely when he prioritizes being a family man over fighting.
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